that’s a good one … the many fearing the few. LOL ! only there’s not many getting the L5-USA too-bad.
Governments, or one of the big corporations, are an example to some but it shouldn’t be assumed so much, as you may forget so many others.
To some, US is worse, or at least as suspect - so no incentive to pay more. Threat models are personal.
I feel that’s misleading. With animals, I’d go with bear vs. ants - there is no anger involved (beyond the ants being pissed). Or a leach. Or some parasitic critter.
1 Like
To tell me what number I am in the shipping queue (number of phones ordered before my order) is a fair legal-type ethical pvivate question to ask. That they won’t do it seems kind of odd. I’m not saying this based on any other companies policies either. I’m just curious as to how much longer I have to wait. It’s been 3 yrs. and I know 'what’s a couple more months going to matter? and other well meaning replys will come.
I know I’ve become a pain in the a## about it and i’m sorry. Anticipation has got me all excited. I’m not mad just anxious.
1 Like
That of course is a different question from what you previously asked (“how many shipped so far?”).
I don’t think it’s that interesting to know what number you are in the shipping queue (particularly as all the really cool numbers have already gone). Of much greater interest to me would be: what is the best estimate for when (what date) I will reach the front of the queue?
However for Purism to estimate when you will reach the front of the queue will require them to have a good handle on indicative shipping rates per week and they did explain that they are letting that process settle down before even internally forming a view on that - and if they did communicate to you that best estimate then that will undoubtedly create negativity if they fail to hit that estimate due to the inevitable glitches and teething problems.
Regardless, there are a number of (“count down”) topics that have been set up in this forum that, if enough customers participate, you will be able to make your own best estimate - provided that you are in Europe or North America.
I totally get that it has been a looooooong 3 years. There is light at the end of the tunnel!
Out of curiosity, what date in 2017 did you order the phone?
For the avoidance of doubt: I don’t speak for Purism. My only association with Purism is as a soon to be Librem 5 user!
2 Likes
Wording is not one of my talents. My number in the “order queue” is what would be of great interest.
Order date was Jan. 11 2018. Will be 3 very soon.
What “count down” topics? Theres so many threads that change topic and leave the origonal its hard to follow and keep them sorted in my tiny mind.
The 6 or so top techies here are very very helpful and good guides to/for me. I really appreciate you folks.
These: "Count down" for Librem5 delivered to europe listed by ordering time and “Count down” for Librem5 delivered to North America
OK, I would guess that you have a while to wait yet.
Using the internet archive, you can estimate your position in the queue i.e. look at the crowdfunding page on Purism’s web site as it was on your ordering date almost 3 years ago.
1 Like
Jan. 11 2018 there was approximately 2255720$ of fundings
2255720 / 599 = 3765
Minus the donations, the dev boards, the +screen packages
My very approximate gross estimation of your position is around 3700
2 Likes
Thanks for doing that. I couldn’t be bothered. 
My take would be … go off and enjoy Christmas / New Year … and see how the Count Downs are going early next year.
Crowdfunding goal was reached mid October. mid Jan 2018 was about 3 months after that i.e. a bit late into the game. The queue was already fairly long.
1 Like
Searching for answers on the forum, and found this. Can someone help me understand WHY such a decision was made? Aggregate production and shipping statistics should be a manufacturer’s friend and ally, not an enemy. Where’s the harm in posting a few minutes’ worth of effort–that should be done anyway for internal purposes–once a week? I don’t think anyone expects Purism to be Motorola.
Yet. 
2 Likes
Because weekly shipments over the first 6 weeks (etc.) are not representative of the ongoing weekly shipments? Because it needs some solid weeks of shipping in order to establish the variability of the weekly shipments?
Because customers will use those numbers to forecast when they will receive their phone and then be complaining in this forum and others when the forecast is not met.
As it has been stated that they aren’t doing this, they might answer you: Nice try! Asking WHY is a proxy for continuing to debate the underlying question.
Allegedly, everyone will receive an email in January. If you aren’t getting the modem confirmation email in January then you are getting an indication of when you will. Allegedly.
2 Likes
I think you missed the point, @irvinewade. Customers are already using delivery dates to forecast, but so far the only complaints have been limited to posts on Reddit.
Yes, asking why is ‘continuing to debate’. I could not find the original debate. Was there even such a debate posted somewhere? I’d like to read that.
Aggregate statistics posting, at this point, cannot do harm. Purism has done work, and they should report it to their customers who have vested interests in seeing it done.
Forecasts, however inaccurate they may be, are superior to outright guessing. Variability in shipments is something to be expected even in the largest of manufacturing settings. In fact, overly consistent production numbers are statistical evidence of reporting fraud. There’s even a well-known statistics test for it, called the Chi Squared Test. A common exercise is using it to show Gregor Mendel altered his reported data when deriving the laws of classical genetics. But I digress.
I await a cool-headed answer from Purism. I am patient, just like many others. I’m asking for information, not arguments.
1 Like
Not really. Not when you have the side-effect of setting customer expectations.
1 Like
One of those starts/ends here:
@irvinewade, I’d have to say selling a phone sets customer expectations pretty well. There are lots of variants on the theme, but it all boils down to “a deal is a deal”. Customers are called such because they give money in exchange for goods and services–and sometimes they give more than that. Clearly, expectations have already been set, thus the ongoing debate.
@eugenr, thanks for the link. There’s some good insight in there, and some very useful links such as this one that review operations changes in 2019. I am grateful for you posting here. I probably would have NEVER found this information without days of searching otherwise.
@Kyle_Rankin, I’m going to have to go back and read through all your forum posts now. I suspect there is a better compromise between Purism’s internal privacy and customer expectations that can be found for the present time. I intend to find it.
I bought my phones from Purism because I believe the company is putting forth tremendous effort to break the stranglehold of overgrown corporations on consumer electronics, namely PCs and cell phones. I also own a Librem 15 and evangelize the hell out of it to everyone who listens. I have therefore linked Purism’s reputation with my own. It is only natural that I would want to help the company behave in accordance with the high standards of integrity and service that I hold myself to. Transparency is a part of that.
I reserve the right to continue constructively criticizing and debating aspects of Purism’s behavior that I find are widely interpreted as running counter to those standards. At this point, withholding proof of production is one of those aspects. No one here can deny that customers are complaining about it. Therefore, there has to be a better way to handle the problem, lest faith in the company’s mission be imperiled.
3 Likes
And Purism answer is: we are delivering the product - that’s the proof of production.
But in time you’ll figure out the catches on your on. I doubt Purism will change its behavior: it’s consistent since a long time. (EDIT: they got me as a backer - long time ago - when I was naive and enthusiastic).
1 Like
Just ask on the forum if you can not find what you are looking for. There are plenty of bored people here (at least I am - no phone to play with, yet).
2 Likes
“I can’t find a shipping estimate for my phone. Can you help me?” 
I’d like to point out that Purism has made a claim to shipping phones, but Purism’s customers are, to date, the ones providing proof of shipping. Things like the size of the Evergreen batch and how many finished products are coming off the assembly line(s)–info that would prove work actually is ongoing and that our investments weren’t being misused–were the “proof of production” I was looking for. I don’t like making this comparison, but Pine64 posted updates about THEIR shipping difficulties with Pinephone quite often last year. “Apples & oranges” some may say, but theirs is still a Linux phone, and in production–albeit sporadically.
I decided to avoid explaining why Purism’s secrecy isn’t a good idea. I don’t want to start a fight. As I said, I’m looking for solutions and compromise.
I wonder how everyone would feel if Purism gave customers the option of assembling the phones and loading up the firmware themselves? “Can’t wait any longer? Willing to surface solder your own phone together and install firmware? Have we got a deal for you!” 
I predict a number of forum user would reply “YES!”–myself included. I did it with the OpenMoko, why not do it again? OK, Mladen Pejaković, send me my phone parts, please!
I’ll keep you company, eugenr. For a time, at least.
2 Likes
Perhaps you could start a new topic in Round Table about it if you want to discuss it in more detail.
I predict very few people are able to do that (I can’t). So few that it actually delays the production for everyone except those people, because Purism would have to change all its logistics.
2 Likes
My time is too important to waste on that. I prefer to be patient and prepare for the transition to L5 in other ways, such developing quarantines for big tech and other participants of surveillance capitalism.
1 Like
I’ll consider doing just that.
If a logistics system isn’t robust enough to handle a routing exception, it should not be implemented at all. One of several glaring flaws in Purism’s product support is the inability to order parts from the Store. The only way an order exception would force a system-wide logistics change is if Purism is attempting to deliver products by solving a Traveling Salesman problem, and they really shouldn’t be wasting time doing that.
YouTube has videos detailing circuit board soldering techniques. Websites and how-to articles abound on the subject, and I myself found Purism from links on DIY electronics pages. This is another one of those facts I felt were already self-evident: that the Linux hardware community and the Purism community were aware of each other and shared multiple common members. It is reasonable to assume that there are other Purism customers who would be able to assemble their own phones.
I take it you mean “developing software to help others quarantine personal data easily.” OK. Enjoy your torture. I’ve been showing people simple methods to safeguard personal info from corporate data mining since before HIPAA was passed in 1996, and to this day most people just ignore them. I don’t think a handy app will change that.
1 Like