[SALE] Selling my future Librem 5 Evergreen, pre-ordered on 2018-Sept-4, for $650

Hardware Librem 5
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2021-Feb-10 Update: Price drop to $650 (from $700)

Summary:

  • For this to work, you’ll have to trust me.
    My Librem 5 might be shipped in August 2021 - my estimate.
    I’m selling it now. I request full payment now, upfront, by bank transfer. I’m from Romania, an European Union country.
    Then I’ll transfer the pre-order to you. See the details below.
    During the two weeks after that, you can still ask to reverse this transaction in case you’ll change your mind.

Details:

I pre-ordered the phone on 2018-Sept-4, and by my estimate from that time, it’s about the 3700th pre-order in the queue. The current reliable estimates from Purism makes me think that they are delivering about 500 phones / month all the way to May 2020, and if that trend continues, my Librem 5 might be shipped in August 2021.

I wish to sell my pre-ordered Librem 5 now and move on. Otherwise, if I’ll have to wait until shipping I would just keep the phone instead of selling it.

I’m asking for full payment, upfront, by bank transfer. I have Romanian IBAN accounts and I can provide you these currency options :
USD 650 USD 700
EUR 535 EUR 580
GBP 475 GBP 515
RON 2615 RON 2815 (Romanian currency)

This price includes that free-shipping that is provided by Purism but not any other fees that you might need to pay in your country when the package arrives, like: VAT, customs fee, DHL custom handling fee, etc… (The same price policy that Purism has).

After I’ll receive the money from you we’ll do the best we can to transfer this pre-order in your name, by contacting the Purism Support. I don’t know how cooperants they will be. In the worst case scenario, I’ll keep the pre-order and when the shipping address confirmation arrives, we’ll put your name and address so the phone ships directly to you.

After we’ll manage to agree that we have finished this pre-order transfer, I will allow for another 2 weeks time for you to change your mind and ask that we reverse this transaction. First we transfer back the pre-order to me, and then I will transfer the money back to you subtracting the cost of the bank transfer (about 5 EUR I think).

Other things to know: I paid $599 for the Librem 5. If you later ask for a refund from Purism before shipping, their refund policy states that you only get the money ($599) when it’s your turn in the pre-order queue to receive the phone.

–
Eugen

Edit: typos

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Thats at least a fairer price then the 799 EUR here in Germany: https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/purism-librem-5-neu-ovp-security-and-privacy-focused-phone/1650424687-173-3416

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But the original price seems to be $599, so the tax will be paid from that price.

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May I suggest some caution if you try to trust random people on forums.

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Best of luck with the sale, and kudos for having all the information upfront so there’s very little left to question!

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I do ask for payment upfront. As for the buyer, the bank account is in my name ( I own it), I’m hosting my own email server with a Romanian domain name ( .ro) and that’s the email address I’ll use. Purism has real data about me. So plenty of opportunities for easy identification. Since the package will ship directly from Purism to the buyer, we have verifiable delivery information.

And if someone will try to maliciously extract my personal information using this transaction, well… it’s an over complicated way to do it, and that information can’t be used with much success in Romania( or EU) - we have many mechanisms to prevent online robbery and such (and that applies also against me if I’ll try to scam the buyer).

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Thanks. I know I need that. No potential buyer has contacted me, yet.

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Salut.
What good will your bank details be to me if that is the only Romanian word I know?
(it is not just you that needs to be careful!)

You should also re-read the update. they may be shipping 500 phones per month now, but that update also says they have supply issues with CPUs and do not know what future stock will look like, they hope to be able to fulfil campaign promises (from 2017) and haven’t made any update or information available for after that.
(it is not easy to predict your 2018 ordered handset will arrive in August.)

And you just made it clear that if for whatever reason the handset isn’t delivered, you’d refund less than the person paid you.

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That the bank transfer is traceable and undeniable. I’m not using some shady fiscal paradise bank or other obfuscating methods.

No, they say that the global semiconductor shortage might affect them, but so far they say it seems to not do that. And if my pre-order would be affected by that, we can assume that all the orders after mine would also be affected including the one you would consider making today on Purism site. Also, I didn’t give August 2021 as certainty. And I said it is just my estimate on how things looks now.

No, I said I only offer refund of the $700 for 2 weeks after the pre-order transfer is completed. That refund doesn’t include Purism (edit:money) at all, we’ll just reverse the transaction. After that, the only refund possible is from Purism, and yes it is only $599 as it’s the original pre-order value. I can’t do anything about that.

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I don’t believe this transaction could be conducted without Purism intervention (‘Then I’ll transfer the pre-order to you.’). So first you need to collect confirmation from purism that they will be able to make an order transfer. Second you need to agree on exact terms - eg how would they broker the transaction to ensure all parties are happy. And then they can offer a method (eg via the shop - someone makes a purchase with notes about existing order transfer and they then do refund to original order and move it to the new owner. However that opens pandora box of the issues so if I were them I won’t agree to broker this type of deal.
If you speak about account transfer (together with order, so that new owner can update shipping and personal information) - that’s still a bit shady and I’d check ToS if that even allows such kind of actions.

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I can always choose the shipping address. As I said, the worst case scenario. Since I have this option, I’m not going to contact Purism beforehand, as I don’t really need their help. I wish we have a proper pre-order transfer so I can move on, and I’ll try to obtain that from Purism, after I get the money from the buyer (so he/she’s commited).

If Purism says it’s not possible to transfer the pre-order to the buyer’s account, I’ll ask them if I can transfer my Shop account to the buyer. This might even be a simple option for Purism.

I know Purism Support is busy and I want to disturb them as little as possible.

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Are you sure, indeed sure? Anyway, customs office (in your link case German one) already asked for the proof of this particular/individual order (from private customer, like current reseller from Berlin) payment in order to on top of what this person (or myself, and not my friend or my neighbor child) payed to Purism for one device (Librem 5) in order to calculate additional customs or import fee, and in particular VAT cost, so I don’t think that 799.- Euro is to much (for imported radio-device with 19% of VAT already payed), for already (and legally) delivered Librem 5.

Indeed :sweat_smile:? Now here comes my point, this thread related one: (if) I ordered up front (invested, payed for) my Librem 5 under my name and when eventually comes to postal delivery itself (to myself), DHL (DHL Express) officer contacts me and tell me that I need to fax/E-mail to central/local Customs office proof of my payment for this particular product, or simply payment (under my name as and when I ordered it) … rest is self-explanatory.

P.S. But under my broad imagination (outside of joint law office life experience and even not with one from inside of prison based, not yet), I need to or I’ll “simply” tell Purism to arrange (rewrite with old timestamp) some Receipt for “my” Librem 5 purchase (pre-order), under my name of course, as it should look alike that I send my money to them and not to someone else (as some type of my kind donation)! @tracy, please (someone calling you), can you help out here as I’m lost in space anyway?

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You are raising a point that I haven’t thought of. But:

  • The custom is interested in the value of the package so to be able to apply the necessary taxes
  • Purism already writes that sum on the package (read it somewhere in the forum (?))
  • DHL Express might just request that proof as a standard /redundancy thing
  • I think that ordering and paying for some thing on a website and having it sent to another person in another country is something pretty legal and maybe common (think about (Xmas) presents sent around the world)

In my case, of course, I can provide the proof of payment.( EDIT: the original with my name on it)

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How will that that help me any more than knowing the bank details and making a transfer to a guy telling me he’s representing the fortune of a Nigerian prince.
Pretending that there is a check, or that this would somehow be traceable to anybody from this forum (to me) is a red flag.

I’d urge anyone to read what was actually said:

so they only have CPUs for backers up to October '17, and are not confident in giving estimate for any orders after that until they actually have the CPUs (which they don’t yet due to a global shortage.)

so as I said, that update also says they have supply issues with CPUs

Ok, so I give you $700 today and you tell me that I can have my $700 back for 2 weeks or wait until a device is delivered in august. and if the device isn’t delivered in august and I say I want money back I only get $600 (assuming that you are trusted to transfer it) . - so if Purism don’t come through in august I loose $100? (you keep the $100, and potentially keep the $600 also.) - you seem to be saying Purism will refund me directly, but you’ve no idea if that is even possible? - it’s probably not, because Purism can’t refund a payment to a card that they never took payment from. - if they are reversing transactions it’ll be the transaction that you made that is reversed?)
But somehow it’ll be fine, because I have your IBAN? - do you think Interpol are going to care so much about me being stiffed $600? or not receiving a phone that may have never been made?!)

See this is the thing, I’m buying a phone from you, I’m giving you money for your device, my deal isn’t with Purism, so if the deal breaks (because your supplier stiffs you) that doesn’t give you any authority to pass on being stiffed. (because I have no deal with Purism to seek any kind of recourse.)

What should happen is, you bought phone from Purism, for $600, You sell phone for $700 to me, Purism refund your $600 to you, You refund my $700 to me!.

But what you’re saying is win or lose you’re keeping the $100 profit from selling a pre-order spot?.
Your buyer pays you $100 (the price difference between your price and the shop price) to give up all protections from buying from a company? for a device that is facing production supply chain issues, and even before then had no authoritative estimated delivery? (sounds like a terrible deal!)

You are misrepresenting the protections offered with bank to bank transfers.
You are misrepresenting CPU supply chain issues.
You are misrepresenting the financials involved in the transactions.
You are asking people to sell all their consumer protections for $100
At the moment you’re selling vaporware.
and you say people just got to trust you.

quite.

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I don’t know how my name is involved here.

Some reference to another thread?

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The Librem 5 pre-order does not have any intrinsic value on its own. The best comparison in my mind is to that of a stock option. You pay something now for the right to make a purchase at a given price later. In this case, the later-price is the wait. Even a two-year-old pre-order on a Samsung phone would have a questionable value. The value in this case is largely dependant on the value of the intangibles that the backers wanted to create. To fund something intangible before its creation and then to abandon it before its fruition , sounds like the seller believes to himself that he is trying to unload a bad investment. Those kinds of investments typically sell for pennies on the dollar and certainly not at a premium.

An early place in line is the least valued part of this product since theoretically, it might never ship at all. Hopes of earlier shipping dates have disappointed all of us here and will continue to do the same going forward. So an earlier shipping date at a higher price offers a negative value to the buyer, especially if the eventual production ramp-up is exponential.

It is reasonable for Purism to stop giving refunds after their committing to the purchase of the materials that are required to build your phone. Just hang on to your order until you have your L5 in-hand. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. If you fear that your L5 may never ship, maybe someone will pay you $100 for your pre-order. That way the buyer might see an opportunity to make a profit if the phone does ship and they can collect on a refund from Purism (assuming that the backer’s vision has no value as the seller is demonstrating). The market value is only based on the buyer’s perceptions. Conversely, if one-hundred people showed up here in one day, announcing that they received their phones and if, on the same day Purism announced that all pre-orders would be shipped by the end of the week, what would your pre-order be worth to someone else then?

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This looks like questionable value to me.

If I wanted a (second) Librem 5, why wouldn’t I just order one from Purism?

It may well be shipped in August 2021anyway (i.e. it’s going to be a long wait either way) but with a whole lot less risk and a whole lot less hassle - because it cuts out the middle man, who is an unknown person on the internet with, by definition, no reputation (good or bad).

I can understand the OP’s frustration - it has been a long process. Best of luck to the OP in finding a buyer and I hope in that case it works out for both of you. Otherwise … as mooted … wait until shipping and just keep the phone.

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What a hell, man? From the first lines I said:

Obviously, you don’t trust me at all. You don’t trust the Police and so on. What did I ever do to you or on this forum so to think about me that I’m not trustable or serious?

Oh, you want to protect the buyer? Then why don’t you do it politely, and raise a caution like some other did, instead of accusing me without any proof?

If Purism thinks that this sell is a scam they can just delete my topic, no harm done.

I know there is a slim chance for this sell to happen. But I had to try it (for peace of my mind). I haven’t found of a better way to do it.

[EDITED to highlight this section:]
This sell is for people who are determined to buy a phone today. Instead of paying $800 for a pre-order, I offer mine with $700 and a better place in the queue. Yes, they lose $100 if they later ask for a refund from Purism. If that’s unfair, if do don’t trust me, please don’t get into this transaction. It’s that simple.

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That “intangible” thing was said to start shipping in January 2019 at the time of my pre-order, a few months before. So not intangible at all.

I wouldn’t sell the pre-order if I believe it won’t ship. I’m not that kind of person.

My disappointing is with Purism politics/decisions. I don’t want to be backer for that anymore. I don’t want to give them my support anymore. They insisted on the mass-production aspect of Evergreen since they prematurely release it in Nov 2020 without having the proper certifications (FCC,CE) and cameras workings. For me, 500 phones/month for a long period of time, is not mass-production at all.

Asking for a refund now, will be very disadvantageus for me and advantageous for Purism. After all the phone costs now $800 not $600.

I do like the Librem 5, and if my sell is not happening, I will wait for it to be delivered and I’ll used it. If I have the device in my hand I won’t sell it. I’ll try to avoid using PureOS as much as possible, by using Debian packages instead.

If the sell happens, only then I will look at Pinephone. The little things I know about it and PINE64 are from this forum. I’ll be more careful that time.

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Keep calm and carry on! :peace_symbol:
We trust you as much as we can, but…

You should not be surprised that people start becoming cautious when transaction sums >600€ are involved and plenty of ambiguity exists (will purism cooperate, what will the customs office say and what will they put on top, when do you receive the order, how to handle returns in case of HW failures, …) These are things that would make me very cautious to accept such an offer (at basically the regular retail price, UPDATE: it is less than the regular retail price, sorry I am not up to date on the price :slight_smile:) even if I fully trusted you.

People have been scammed for way less, and the customs offices around the world (or the EU in this case) are pretty arbitrary and unpredictable in how they handle the same product even in the same country).
Your example of sending xmas presents around the world will not do, I have been paying A LOT of customs duty for Christmas presents sent from Switzerland to Germany, and these are neighbor countries, so yes these presents can incur custom duties (or the Aliexpress sellers would all suddenly start sending out christmas presents all year round if that worked around customs). So, some understanding if some people are hesitant and sceptical.
I (sincerely) wish you best of luck in selling it, and lots of fun to the person receiving it. Perhaps some kind of escrow service might make things easier, or at least acknowledgement from Puri.sm that changing the delivery address (and name on the bill) is possible.
And other people, no need to be aggressively sceptical here. Everyone should be aware of the risks and either take the offer or leave it.

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